Author Topic: R.I.P Alexander Litvinenko and Iraq  (Read 890 times)

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Offline Roger

R.I.P Alexander Litvinenko and Iraq
« on: January 21, 2016, 08:40:37 PM »
A sober British Judge after a very long Inquiry ...... concludes that President Putin of Russia 'probably', ordered the murder of AL. For some time that conclusion seemed likely given the poison used. But IF that's a correct conclusion. Just shameful for Russia.
And the UN ? mentions in passing, 17000 Iraqi civilians lost their lives in the last year ? A long term result of poorly thought through handiwork, of the UK and other Nations.
Spare a thought for Cameron and Obama as they have to secure the co-operation of Putin in tackling the horrors of Syria and ISIS/Daiesh.
I think DC earns his wages - like him or not !


Offline Roger

Re: R.I.P Alexander Litvinenko and Iraq
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2016, 06:23:39 AM »
It was interesting watching 'Russia Today' on the Litvinenko subject yesterday. At first the topic was reported quite factually with little criticism but within a few hours the conclusions of the British Judge were being openly mocked with satire. Quite rightly as the conclusions did not seem to deliver on the usual UK criteria of 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. Nevertheless a mass of circumstantial evidence and the style and closeness of President Putin to the characters involved suggest that the Judge was right, 'probably'.
I didn't make my deeper point well in the post yesterday. So....
Absolutely appalling as it is for the Russian State to be directly involved in the murder of Litvinenko, as a Brit, it is hard to be too self-righteous about Putin's involvement when our own handiwork in the second Iraq war killed so many innocents at the time AND left behind a legacy which the UN reported as costing the lives of 17,000 innocent civilians in the last year alone.

(DC and the wider EU must now work with the USA and Russia itself to stop the slaughter. chaos and exodus of refugees in Syria caused by their own civil war and ISIS/Daish).

We can do little more than hope for better times I suppose.


Online Taman Tun

Re: R.I.P Alexander Litvinenko and Iraq
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 02:06:05 PM »

The full Owen Report is available on the internet and makes interesting reading.  This is what Owen says about "possible" (or probable)

2.20 As I have explained at paragraphs 122-123 of Appendix 1, in making findings of fact I have adopted the 'flexible and variable' approach to the standard of proof that was formulated by Sir William Gage in the Baha Mousa Inquiry. I add that where in this Report I state that 'I am sure' I will have found a fact to the criminal standard. When I use such expressions as 'I find' or 'I am satisfied' the standard of proof will have been the ordinary civil standard of proof, namely the balance of probabilities. Where it is obvious that I have found a fact but I have not used one of these terms, the standard will have been the civil standard. All other expressions, such as a reference to a state of affairs being 'possible' will not be a finding of fact, but will indicate my state of mind in respect of the issue being considered.

what is amazing about this story is the incredible indifference of the murderers to the safety of others.  At the hotel where Litvinenko was poisoned there was radiation left everywhere:- In the toilets, on the seats and the radiation level on the teapot was off the scale.
“No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have searched the record for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.” - H L Mencken

Offline Roger

Re: R.I.P Alexander Litvinenko and Iraq
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 07:28:58 PM »
Yes TT. Indifference ! Good word for it ......
Poor Mr Litvinenko and what a messy way to choose to kill someone - surely the proven method of poison on the tip of an umbrella would have done the job.
Indifference - I think George Bush and Tony Bliar should help us understand the effect of indifference to the safety of others.
Thanks for the comments from Judge Owen - so 'probable' was a good expression of the overwhelming weight of the purely circumstantial evidence.

Offline Roger

Re: R.I.P Alexander Litvinenko and Iraq
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 12:31:28 PM »
Well TT and all.
An excellent article in today's 'Guardian' by Will Hutton on the subject of Litvinenko's murder. Frightening really. But we do have to deal with the Putin monster.
Sweet Lord !