Author Topic: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges  (Read 19383 times)

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Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2013, 10:34:52 AM »
Zimmerman Juror Says Panel Considered Stand Your Ground In Deliberations: ‘He Had A Right To Defend Himself’

In an interview on CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360 Monday night, an anonymous juror said the panel that found George Zimmerman not guilty considered Florida’s Stand Your Ground law in its deliberations. Earlier reports suggested the notorious law that authorizes the unfettered use of deadly force in self-defense was not applied to the case, because Zimmerman’s lawyers opted not to request a Stand Your Ground hearing. But as ThinkProgress explained in a post earlier today, the jury instructions contained the law’s key provision and instructed jurors that self-defense meant Zimmerman was entitled to “stand his ground” with “no duty to retreat.”

The juror’s interview with Anderson Cooper Monday night confirms that the jury not only considered this language in their deliberations, but that their decision hinged in part on the Stand Your Ground Law:

    COOPER: Did you feel like you understood the instructions from the judge? Because they were very complex. I mean, reading them, they were tough to follow.

    JUROR: Right. That was our problem. It was just so confusing what went with what and what we could apply to what. Because I mean, there was a couple of them in there that wanted to find him guilty of something. And after hours and hours and hours of deliberating over the law and reading did over and over and over again, we decided there’s just no way — no other place to go.

    COOPER: Because of the two options you had, second degree murder or manslaughter, you felt neither applied?

    JUROR: Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.

    COOPER: Even though he got out of the car, followed Trayvon Martin that didn’t matter in the deliberations. What mattered was the final seconds, minutes when there was an altercation and whether or not in your mind the most important thing was whether or not George Zimmerman felt his life was in danger?

    JUROR: That’s how we read the law. That’s how we got to the point of everybody being not guilty.

In spite of conservative claims to the contrary, the juror’s statements make clear that not only was the Stand Your Ground law included in the jury instructions, but that the jury heavily considered that law in its deliberation.

thinkprogress.org

If they decided on the basis of "Stand your ground", which the defendant had waived before, the verdict was extremely faulty, has to be cancelled and the whole case gone through again IMO. Bungled!
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sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2013, 10:45:25 AM »
Perhaps she was paid to appear. Yesterday, none of the jurors would speak in public. After her performance, the others may well decide to keep quiet.

She has, presumably, seen the public reaction to the verdict. Appearing on CNN for a lengthy interview has probably added fuel to the fire.

 

Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 10:50:56 AM »
This trial had nothing to do with the stand your ground law.  That defense was discarded well before the trial even started.


Why Stand Your Ground Is Central To George Zimmerman’s Case After All

The Stand Your Ground law that gained notoriety in the wake of Trayvon Martin’s shooting became central to the case again last week, when written instructions advised the jury that found shooter George Zimmerman not guilty to take the law’s central provision into account.

The law that authorizes the use of unfettered deadly force with no “duty to retreat” sparked national outcry last year when police cited the statute as grounds for not arresting George Zimmerman for more than a month. Since then, reports and studies have shown that similar laws on the books in at least 21 states are discriminatory, applied arbitrarily, and associated with a higher rate of homicides. But the law faded from center stage after police pursued arrest of Zimmerman 44 days later, and Zimmerman’s lawyers opted not to specifically raise the law as a defense during trial. Had the lawyers moved to formally raise Stand Your Ground as a defense, the judge would have held a hearing devoted to whether the law immunized Zimmerman from criminal liability, and the case might have ended without ever going to a jury.

Zimmerman’s lawyer chose instead to go to trial, once again declining to specifically raise “Stand Your Ground” as a defense and keeping the law out of the trial. But the principle’s irrelevance ended the moment the jury received their instructions for deciding the case. As Ta-Nehisi Coates reveals, the written instructions that sat with the jurors as they deliberated made very clear that under Florida law, a shooter has a right to stand his ground:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in anyplace where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Since Zimmerman’s lawyers opted not to invoke Stand Your Ground as a defense, observers have characterized this case as a regular old “self-defense” case, rather than a “Stand Your Ground” case. But what these jury instructions make clear is that, in Florida, there is no longer an effective distinction. Stand Your Ground is the state’s self-defense law, whether or not a defendant opts to hold a hearing specifically on the question. In fact, this section on the “Justifiable Use of Deadly Force” is the only place in all 27 pages of jury instructions in which the phrase “self-defense” is used.

And self-defense now means shooters may stand their ground not just to prevent death or great bodily harm, but also to prevent the “commission of a forcible felony.” Those who wonder why jurors didn’t expect that a reasonable person in George Zimmerman’s situation should have taken lesser action than firing a deadly shot at a kid whose arsenal consisted of candy and a soft drink – regardless of whether or not he attacked Zimmerman — may find their answer on page 11 of the jury instructions.

Given this instruction, it is worth pointing out that George Zimmerman was studying criminal justice at an online college, including Florida’s Stand Your Ground law. After jurors watched the recording of a Fox News interview in which Zimmerman claimed to have no knowledge of Florida’s Stand Your Ground law, his college professor testified that the law was covered extensively in his class, and that Zimmerman was “probably one of the better students in the class” and received an A.

Regardless of whether Zimmerman was well-versed in the statute and exploited it to his advantage, it remains the law in Florida. Its inclusion in the jury instructions as an explanation of self-defense makes all the more compelling the jury’s reasonable doubt about Zimmerman’s legal culpability, even if, as Emily Bazelon suggests, Florida is undoubtedly guilty.

The Stand Your Ground law may once again play a pivotal role in civil lawsuits against Zimmerman. As legal commentators have pointed out, the Stand Your Ground law provides the same opportunity for defendants to seek immunity from civil liability that it does from criminal, if a judge finds the defendant’s use of force was justifiable under the law’s standards. And as in this case, even if a judge doesn’t find Zimmerman immune, a jury would once again be instructed to take the Stand Your Ground rule into account.

thinkprogress.org

Final Jury Instructions
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sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2013, 11:37:45 AM »
If this in the link below is the 'stand your ground' law and is the full text, then Zimmerman could not use it in his defence because, as far as I can tell, it's irrelevant. It also seems to focus on home intrusion which, clearly, didn't happen.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html
 

Offline Baby Farts

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Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2013, 09:02:27 PM »
Interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin


Very good compilation! Just too long to read at once. :-[

How could they find him "not guilty" with all that evidence? Have those six women never heard of the internet and how detailed news are passed on nowadays?

In three to six months their identities have to be laid open. Then they'll probably need police protection.
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Offline thaiga

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2013, 09:49:37 PM »

He intends to reclaim the gun he used to shoot dead the unarmed 17-year-old.

According to his lawyer, Mark O’Mara, Mr Zimmerman needs a firearm to protect himself now “even more” than before. Speaking to ABC News on Sunday, O’Mara said Mr Zimmerman, 29, “feels, truly in his heart, that if he did not have that weapon [on the night of the shooting] he might not be here”.

independent.co.uk
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Offline Baby Farts

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2013, 11:09:58 PM »
What's appalling to me is how the media has distorted the race of the shooter.  First they said he's white, then half white half Hispanic.  It turns out he's Hispanic yet these stupid little monkeys are taking it out on the white folks.  I wonder if Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson will say something about this:

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/jogger-says-he-was-attacked-in-retaliation-for-zimmerman-verdict-2.html

I hate to say it, but blacks seem to use the racist card whenever it suits them, fair or unfair always retreating into the scriptures of "my ancestors were slaves" and therefore makes them believe they are entitled to free housing, food stamps, welfare, etc., and crying "hate crime" every chance they get. 
 

sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 09:02:52 AM »
Anderson Cooper this morning showed more of his interview of juror B37.

She must have shocked many people with her clear admissions of bias. She had accepted just about all of the defence team's guesses as to the detail of the confrontation between Martin and his killer but rejected almost all of those of the prosecution. She was prepared to dismiss all of the mistakes made by Zimmerman from the moment he got out of his car, even excusing them. She accepted without question that the animation presented by the defence was accurate when it is clearly no more than Zimmerman's story regarding who struck the first blow. She ignored evidence to the effect that Martin had said, 'Get off me'.

She said that the whole jury cried at the moment their verdict was handed to the Court official in a private room. That suggests something was very wrong with that jury. Perhaps they were uncomfortable with their verdict. Perhaps they didn't have the strength of character to do a proper job.

Cooper made a point of telling viewers that juror B37 and her husband had now decided after all not to write and publish a book about this case. This is the woman who told Court officials after the Court proceeding were finished that she wanted to be excused from jury service for the rest of her life.

This case, especially given the revelations of juror B37, is likely to cause a great deal of debate and, quite rightly, will probably rekindle the US gun law debate.
 

Offline Al

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2013, 02:57:50 AM »
Johnny F.  The US legal system allows jurors, after the case is concluded to discuss, write a book or not say a word.  It is entirely up to each individual juror.  In fact often, after the case is concluded, the losing side will contact each juror to find out what drove their decisions.  And again, it is up to each juror on whether they wish to discuss part, all or none of the components of their decision process.

Whatever each juror decides, this case is done and finished.  Zimmerman has been found not guilty and nothing can change that fact.
 

Offline Al

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2013, 07:00:08 AM »
"She was prepared to dismiss all of the mistakes made by Zimmerman from the moment he got out of his car, even excusing them."

As the juror should have done because they were irrelevant to the case at hand.  Anyone can follow anyone and that, in itself, is not against the law.  The only, absolutely only, issue for the jury to decide was what was happening at the moment Zimmerman shot Martin.  Did he fear for his life?  If yes, not guilty.  Everything else leading up to that point is a subject for another discussion.
 

Offline Al

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2013, 07:02:33 AM »
Whether or not he reclaims his gun is entirely up to him.  He has been found not guilty and as a result all evidence must be returned.  As it should be.
 

Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2013, 07:41:34 AM »
That the jury more or less directly was instructed by the judge to decide about Yimmerman's deed on the basis of "Stand your Ground", the wrong law to decide upon,  would give reason for an appeal in most law systems on this planet. Sorry to hear that the US isn't as "advanced" as that yet, Al. :)

Self-defense cannot be claimed, when the situation has been challenged by yourself. You cannot threaten somebody or intentionally appear threatening, and then claim you needed to defend yourself, when he defended himself against you. :-[

The US legal system has a big shackle on its hand with that decision!
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Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2013, 08:07:12 AM »
Whether or not he reclaims his gun is entirely up to him.  He has been found not guilty and as a result all evidence must be returned.  As it should be.

Maybe the gun as his property has to be returned, but his gun license can be easily revoked by a competent authority. And that's what they should do on the grounds of his "questionable use of a gun" before. The jury might have found him not guilty for various reasons like the misunderstanding or ignoring of evidence, or the misleading instructions by the court. But he isn't proven innocent, just presumed. Authorities and courts can do lots of things with justification to fulfill their tasks - if the people in charge want to.
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sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 09:34:20 AM »
"She was prepared to dismiss all of the mistakes made by Zimmerman from the moment he got out of his car, even excusing them."

As the juror should have done because they were irrelevant to the case at hand.  Anyone can follow anyone and that, in itself, is not against the law.  The only, absolutely only, issue for the jury to decide was what was happening at the moment Zimmerman shot Martin.  Did he fear for his life?  If yes, not guilty.  Everything else leading up to that point is a subject for another discussion.

Zimmerman's actions and words to the police before he confronted Martin are relevant in that they indicated what was in his mind. He made it clear that he profiled a kid he had never seen previously as a criminal. He wanted the glory of being the one who apprehended him. He scared the kid who 'stood his ground' within Florida's laws and needlessly lost his life. The claim that 'stand your ground' and race were not factors in this case is false.

Compare two cases:

1. Zimmerman killed an unarmed black kid who, at the most, was attempting to defend himself from an aggressor. Zimmerman - 'Not Guilty'.

2. Alexander fired a warning shot at a wall to deter her violent husband who had her cornered and threatened to kill her. She claimed 'stand your ground' and, in fact had no choice but either to do so or be beaten again. Alexander -  twenty years without parole.

One could be forgiven for believing that black people in Florida are judged by different standards than those of other ethnic groups.
 

Offline Al

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2013, 10:01:54 AM »
You are in error.  Stand your ground was never a part of the defense nor a consideration of the jury.

Johnny, disagree.  The US legal system worked exactly as it should, rather than being influenced by opinion or political desire.  And concerning Saf's opinion, and yes it is merely a speculative opinion that ". . . an unarmed black kid who, at the most, was attempting to defend himself from an aggressor" when that unarmed "kid" ends up straddling Zimmerman and banging Zimmerman's head off the concrete, it becomes a self defense issue, and nothing but.

And you guys make it sound like Zimmerman was in an area he had no business being in. Zimmerman was hired as a kind of a block watch guy by a gated community that had experienced a number of crimes.  Yes, if he had not pursued none of this would have happened.  But he did, and that in itself is not a crime.
 

Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2013, 10:12:58 AM »
You are in error.  Stand your ground was never a part of the defense nor a consideration of the jury.

Just repeating claims that have been refuted by good arguments already doesn't make a discussion, Al!

If you read the thread again from the beginning with all the references given, you'll find, that all that has been discussed and refuted already. :-[

Johnny, disagree.  The US legal system worked exactly as it should.

Maybe we should wait for it to actually work. The case is long from over! It definitely were a shame, if it were over with that failure of a court! Zimmerman is not proven innocent, the court just failed to convict him. Zimmerman is presumed innocent only. Let the competent authorities etc. do their job to finish the case.
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sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2013, 10:28:51 AM »
It's clear from the interview given by juror B57 that 'stand your ground' indeed was included in their deliberations, despite what might have been said in the open Court.

Al, my opinion regarding what happened is as valid as yours. There is no clear and objective evidence as to what happened in some of the detail other than Zimmerman acted against the advice of the police and shot an unarmed kid. Zimmerman is also shown, in a recording made by the police, that he had profiled Martin as a 'punk' of the type that 'always got away with it'. This and other similar evidence was dismissed as irrelevant by a jury that had fallen in love with the killer.

If an unarmed kid manages to get to the ground an armed adult who has been following him the dark, then good luck to him if he manages to bang the man's head against concrete. He was 'standing his ground'. If he was holding down Zimmerman, it's amazing that the latter managed to pull the little gun out of his arse crack that was said to have been pressed against concrete and take a horizontal shot at several inches distance straight through Martin's heart.

Zimmerman was advised not to follow Martin but he did. As far as I know, he did have a right to be in the area but the point you continue to ignore, Al, is that he was following Martin who knew it and was troubled by it.

Was Zimmerman 'hired' or did he volunteer? What is clear is that, having failed in his attempt to be recruited to the police force, he was keen to seek glory as a vigilante who could deal with a crime faster than could the police. He had mentally prepared himself for an opportunity to be recognised and finally did so in circumstances that will make him fear for his life for years to come. Perhaps that, at least, is some form of justice.
 

Offline Al

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2013, 10:37:09 AM »
Johnny, because a claim has been previously made in this forum does not make it correct nor refuted.  Much of the arguments on this subject have been flat wrong, or based on opinion, wishful thinking and/or conjecture, which is a long way from fact.

And yes the case is over, Zimmerman has been found not guilty.

Will the justice dept bring charges involving civil rights violations by Zimmerman?  Good luck with that.  Will the Martin family bring a civil suit against Zimmerman?  Again, good luck with that because if they lose, according to Florida law, they will be liable for all court expenses, including the defense's expenses.

Six people who heard a great deal more than any of us rendered a verdict.  That is how the US system of justice works.  Is it better or worse than other systems?  Don't know and don't care.
 

Offline Al

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2013, 10:54:37 AM »
We all have strong opinions on this subject, and none will change the fact that the trial is over.

I do appreciate the give and take over the past few days but do believe this thread had run its course, for me at least.

I hope our next encounter on this forum is on a subject that is a bit more positive.

Take care and thanks for putting up with me.
 

sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2013, 11:07:40 AM »
Bye, Al, and enjoy your wishful thinking until next time.  ;)
 

Offline Baby Farts

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2013, 11:55:48 AM »
People keep bringing up the issue of Martin being "unarmed."  You don't have to be "armed" to maim or kill someone.
 

Offline Johnnie F.

Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2013, 12:09:58 PM »
I remember having read somewhere that the bullet entered Martin's chest in an angle that could have been from front below. What I wonder is, how can somebody, who is lying on the ground with another person sitting on him and holding shoulders or head, move his arm from the waist, where his gun was supposed to be, and where Martin was allegedly sitting on, all the way to shoot at Martin from the front, not the side? Have I missed or misunderstood something? It would seem more likely that he'd already shoot into the side instead of waiting and struggling to get the gun directly in front of the person sitting on him...
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sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2013, 12:59:19 PM »
People keep bringing up the issue of Martin being "unarmed."  You don't have to be "armed" to maim or kill someone.

I don't think that anyone would dispute that. However, the fact is that a wannabe hero with a cheap gun out for glory killed an unarmed youth.
 

Offline Baby Farts

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2013, 02:10:39 PM »
An unarmed youth who obviously had no qualms about straddling Zimmerman and beating his head on the pavement.
 

sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2013, 02:35:21 PM »
An unarmed youth who obviously had no qualms about straddling Zimmerman and beating his head on the pavement.

Who can blame him? There's probably no point in attempting to run from a nutter with a gun.
 

sicho

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2013, 08:09:45 AM »
Today's interview with Martin's parents on the Anderson Cooper show doesn't seem to be on You Tube yet. However, I watched it live and saw again some clips from Cooper's interview of juror B37

The more I listen to what she said, the more I'm convinced that there was a miscarriage of justice.
 

Offline thaiga

Re: 'Trayvon Martin could have been me' - Barack Obama ♦ video
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2013, 01:39:57 PM »
President Barack Obama has said that "Trayvon Martin could have been me, 35 years ago", in his first comments on the case since last week's verdict.

The unarmed black 17-year-old was shot and killed in Florida in February 2012.

George Zimmerman, 29, said he opened fire on the teenager in self-defence and was acquitted of murder by a Florida court last week.
                                     
                                     
In an unexpected press call, Mr Obama said very few black men in the US had not experienced racial profiling.

Mr Obama said the pain that African-Americans felt around the case came from the fact that they viewed it through "a set of experiences and a history that doesn't go away".

He said African Americans were also keenly aware of racial disparities in the application of criminal laws.

"That all contributes to a sense that if a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different," Mr Obama said.

He shared his experiences of being racially profiled in the past, such as being followed while out shopping.

"There are very few African-American men who haven't had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars.

"There are very few African-Americans who haven't had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she has a chance to get off," he said.

Mr Obama also hailed the "incredible grace and dignity" of Trayvon Martin's parents - Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton - in the way they reacted to the verdict.

Calling for "soul-searching" from Americans on issues of race, he also sounded a hopeful note, saying that race relations were improving with each generation.

Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton later issued a statement saying they were "deeply honoured and moved" by President Obama's comments.

"President Obama sees himself in Trayvon and identifies with him. This is a beautiful tribute to our boy," they said.

"We seek a future when a child can walk down the street and not worry that others see him as dangerous because of the colour of his skin or the clothes on his back."

Saturday's not guilty verdict for George Zimmerman from the all-female jury of six prompted nationwide protests, with further demonstrations planned for this weekend.

Mr Obama called for the protests to remain peaceful, saying any violence "dishonours what happened to Trayvon Martin".

He said that although criminal matters and law enforcement were traditionally dealt with on a state and not a federal level, it would be useful to examine some state and local laws to see if they encourage confrontation in certain situations.

On Wednesday, US Attorney General Eric Holder cited the case as he urged a nationwide review of "stand your ground" laws, such as those in place in Florida, which permit the use of deadly force if a person feels seriously threatened.

The issue was never raised during the trial, though the judge included a provision about the law in her instructions to the jury, allowing it to be considered as a legitimate defence.

bbc.co.uk


FULL SPEECH - Barack Obama Addresses George Zimmerman Verdict: 'Trayvon Could've Been Me'



Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist should have his head examined.
 


Offline Baby Farts

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Re: Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2013, 10:24:20 AM »
Racism needs to keep itself alive.  Blacks will notoriously and undoubtedly always look for an opportunity to play the racists trump card whenever it suits them.  How many whites did you see pillaging, burning buildings, rioting, etc, when O.J was set free?????   That's what separates men from uneducated monkeys.
 

 



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